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Tuesday, March 17, 2009
The Devil's Advocate talks to Bill Keller, Vol. 1
Posted by Eric Snider on Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 3:20 PM
“If you vote for Mitt Romney you are voting for Satan.” —Bill Keller
Bill Keller is one of the most controversial religious figures in Tampa Bay ... or Florida ... or the country, for that matter. The conservative Christian evangelist has no formal pulpit, at least not in a brick-and-mortar church, but he does get his message out far and wide via a radio show, Live Prayer with Bill Keller, weeknights from 11 p.m. to midnight on WWBA-AM 820; his Daily Devotional, which gets e-mailed to more than 2-million people a day; and his website, liveprayer.com, which, with help from his staff, answers prayer requests via e-mail.
Keller is known for his incendiary rhetoric and unbending view of Bible-based morality. He believes homosexuality is an abomination, abortion is murder and … you can pretty much guess the rest.
I profiled Keller for this publication about five years ago and have maintained contact with him. He has always welcomed participating in hostile forums — the idea being that he should go where the sinners are. Creative Loafing being the haven for sinners that it is, Keller and I have decided to do a series of Q&A’s. It’s called The Devils Advocate Talks to Bill Keller. In case it’s not clear, I’ll be playing the role of the Devil’s Advocate.
Today’s topic:
Keller recently called out the IRS, which he says has investigated whether he breached his tax exemption by railing against political candidates during the ’08 campaign. The tax code bars religious institutions or their leaders from advocating for or against candidates. His main targets: Obama, McCain, Hilary Clinton and, especially, Mitt Romney, of whom he said, “If you vote for Mitt Romney you are voting for Satan..”
The St. Petersburg Times covered this story a few weeks ago. Check it out if you’d like more background.
The Devil's Advocate: You said, “If you vote for Mitt Romney you are voting for Satan.” Why?
Bill Keller: That got taken from a devotional I did, warning people that Romney is part of the Mormon cult.
The fact is that those who follow the teachings of the Mormon cult will die and go to hell. Mormons like to refer to themselves as Christians when in fact their beliefs are totally inconsistent with what the Bible teaches.
The case I was making is that Romney, by virtue of being in the office of President, would have led people to check out what he calls his church, and people would die and go to hell. The goal of Satan is to lead men to hell.
Is that not advocating against a candidate?
Taken alone I could see how the statement could be construed that way. But under my tax exemption, I have every right to educate on spiritual matters, and that includes about Mormon doctrine.
But weren't you telling people not to vote for Romney?
No. I specifically made the point: Vote for him if you want, or don’t vote for him. That’s a choice you have to make. I am here to educate you as far as what he believes, what the potential outcome of his getting elected could be in terms of the souls of people going to hell.
By going public, you have basically dared the IRS to strip you of your tax exemption. Isn’t that risky?
They initiated the investigation under the pretense that the comments I made about the political candidates violated my tax exemption. I complied fully with them. They made three separate requests for documentation and I complied with them all. It’s now time for them to make a ruling that what I said violated my tax exemption — or leave me alone. My recourse is to go into federal court and litigate it.
I did not cross the line. The big picture here is not only a free speech issue, but whether pastors can talk about spiritual issues of the day that might cross over into the political arena.
When is the last time you heard from the IRS?
November.
Is it stressful that the threat is still out there?
Absolutely. It’s like a Damocles hanging over our heads.
Comments (104)
Showing 1-50 of 104
Keller is Exhibit A of why Republicans won't be winning any time soon. As long as the evangelical right is busy trying to kick so-called 'nonchristians' out of our party, we're going to be watching the Democrat party ranks grow and grow. Someone who poses as a biblical leader concluding that Mitt Romney would be bad for the country, humanity, morality and spirituality is all the evidence anyone needs to hear to conclude said biblical leader is either (a)insane, (b)stupid, (c)opportunistic, (d)jealous but most likely (e) all of the above. Meanwhile, reasonable republicans like me will work to smooth over the bizarre hatred of Mormons by certain evangelicals among us so we don't have to live a couple generations under one-party Democrat rule. As an educated episcopalian, I claim no allegiance to evangelicals or mormons; though, if I'm basing my opinion on observations of both, well then Mitt Romney, his life and moral conditioning is far superior to Keller and Keller's probable heroic mantle of religious bigotry in 2008, Mike Huckabee.
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To find out why Bill Keller doesn't know what he's talking about read: http://MormonsAreChristian.blogspot.com or http://NewTestamentTempleRitual.blogspot.com
Isn't Keller a convicted felon? I find it first totally odd that people would listen to anything this guy has to say as he is only and opportunist that is sucking a living off of gullible poeple. You may disagree with his politics, but Romney has lived a clean stellar life, been faithful to his wife, raised a wonderful family, worked hard and achieved success. Contrast this to Keller who after being jailed for tax evasion and fraud, suddenly finds Jesus(what a joke) and now is calling good people and a good religion (based on the Mormons I know)evil. Sounds like if anybody is going to hell, it is Keller.
I find it rather odd that this Mr. keller claims to be a man of Christianity. Isn’t a TRUE Christian one who teaches of Christ, one who wants to become like Christ and to serve others? Why then does Mr. keller (or anyone for that matter who claims to be a Christian...) teach hatred and bitterness to one’s religion? It gets real frustrating when one wants to know about a certain religion they always go elsewhere to get their information. I think I’ll go by a Chevrolet and ask the Ford dealer which one to by. It just doesn’t work. If Mr. keller wants to know about the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints, why then does he not go to that church – there are a couple young men we would love to send over, Mr. keller. Get over your hatred to others who want to do good. Have a nice day. - Fosterchild
I am grateful to Bill Keller for caring enough to sound an alarm for all who are willing to listen. Bill's opinions are not based on his own ideas or whims, but on what God has to say about the subject. If the Maker of all were speaking audibly He would resound this same warning. . . . in fact, He had it written down for us. The choice is ours whether to heed the warning or not.
Deanna, you do realize that the same thing Keller and his mormon-bashing ilk say about LDS--that it's false since it is allegedly based on post-biblical revelation--can be said about the whole of christianity since the New Testament is, itself, a post-biblical tale of revelation. In other words, Christianity is merely an offshoot of Judaism. Thankfully, a complex being such as God doesn't decide who gets into Heaven based on church membership. Instead, God rewards people who are good and who do good. Personally, I'd live my life the same even there were no God because I believe in Honor. Now, there's no reason that God would view anyone's life based on what church or temple he or she attended (or not) above all else. So, insofar as most religions seek to disqualify the competition by each acting like they are the only path to God, they are all wrong and all deserve to be doubted and disbelieved. However, since I view religion as mankind's attempt to reach out to God, they all are good insofar as they teach us to be and do good. Now, if all followers of faith - any faith - cannot find it in their common interest to gather around a core set of moral principles as they pertain to public policy, well, like I said, the Democrats will be dominating the government for a very long time thanks to the cultural warfare being waged by the rabid segment of evangelical movement.
Unfortunatly, we have a socialist muslem pro choice in office instead of the mormon republican pro life. Rudy was picked over Huckabee by James Dobson. We certainly are not goin to have perfect evangalist Presidents, we don't even have Pastors that know and teach the Word well. 61% of those in office the only "Christians" in office believe in replacement theology. That is just as dangerous as cults. Why don't the Pastors know the Word?
Keller is right on. It is amazing to me that all the left wing liberals can speak pro abortion, pro gay, pro anything unbiblical and when one man, Bill Keller, call them out on it, everyone who is not saved and doesn't have eternal life with Jesus gets upset. Life is so simple. Faith (in Jesus), Family, Friends, and everything else. If you live your life with those principles, everything else will take care of itself. If you stick to those principles, people (like Billy Bob and Brock) wouldn't make foolish arguments. Their arguments obviously aren't based on their Faith. This was a nice article. Sadly, in the US today, Bill Keller has to try to get Christians to speak up. He is one of the few Christian voices out there with good intentions who is actually following the lead of Jesus and the God's inspired words in the Bible. The USA was founded by Christian men, and our Constitution was based on Christian principles. Liberals like to say that the world has changed or "evolved". Nothing has changed. God is still in control of EVERYTHING! God bless you Bill Keller. Keep up the good work.
Keller reminds me of a character in a book I read. There was this religious leader who got his followers to go after a good man by accusing him of being of the devil. I highly recommend the book - it's called the New Testament, in the Bible. Keller sounds just like the Jewish High Priest Caiaphas.
Brock - Don't miss the Truth by 18". I am sure that your belief in "Honor" is good, but honor, in and of itself, is not a standard to be believed in. Honor can change depending on the situation. There is One who is the Standard for all things. Certainly God does not base who gets into Heaven by their church membership. Nor does He necessarily reward people for doing or being good. There is one and only one standard for entrance into Heaven. ALL other ways are false. God made it simple for us by making only One Way.
Deanna, perhaps you missed it, but I am christian (episcopalian). What I was saying about Honor was not supplemental to my faith. Now, you contend that there is ONE pathway to God. Ergo, all other options are false or invalid or just no good. That's fine if that's how you want to base your belief, but that should not dictate your vote for people in public and secular office. I'll say it again: people of all faiths have much more in common than people of no faith. We can either decide to permit each other the courtesy of practicing our own systems of worship and unite on our massive common ground, or we can splinter off into groups after each other's throats based on technicalities, cultural identity, and paranoia. As long as self-serving characters like Keller are running around driving a wedge between those of us who are more moral majority than anti-mormon like you, the Democrats win.
It's obvious you do not know the Bible, and it is not hatred towards Mormons, it's the way they twist what is Biblical. He's making his point Biblically and speaking the truth It's obvious some cannot handle the truth.
What do you want Keller to do? Make you feel good and tell you things that the Bible dosen't already say? Don't shoot the messenger. Nobody listened to Noah either...Besides which one of us is "good" anyway? If your life has one sin or thousands it is still unfit to present to God.That's why Jesus Chirst died for you. His blood was shed for YOUR SIN. Quit looking at others, look at youself and see. There is none righteous, no not one. Jesus Christ is our only hope and Bill Keller is trying his best to tell you that. You don't have to like him.
I have my disagreements with Rev. Keller on occasion and I share them with him and he writes me back. How many people that have huge followings as he does take the time to do so? But if more pastors were as uncompromising as Bill is on sin and the issues, perhaps we wouldn't need his ministry nor have the multitudes of problems we currently have in society. Bill does call sin what it is - sin - but sin not only can take you to hell (if unconfessed), it isn't ever healthy or wise in this life. Abortion has killed countless babies and left countless women emotionally scarred. Homosexual activity leads to AIDS and early death - why engage in it? Adultery and p*rn activity break down the family structure and harms men, women and children - all parties in the families involved. Gambling, be it the lottery or the casino, leads men and women into divorce and bankruptcy. There are more examples of sin but suffice it to say that sin is not a good thing for anyone. If your doctor tells you to stop drinking or you'll die of liver cancer or to stop smoking or you'll die of lung cancer, he or she is doing so because it's their duty to tell you to avoid items that are not good for your body. The same way Bill tells us things that are not good for our souls and our bodies, both in this life and especially in the next. Whether we obey what he says is up to us. But I think it's the right thing to do. The consequences are ours for embracing what is bad but by Bill delivering the truth, he has delivered his soul.
There are two major political parties with pretty big differences between them. Most moral and faithful people are compelled to vote Republican; most secularists Democrat. By using the annexed beliefs to one or the other of the faiths, a wedge is in fact being driven between typical Republican voters. This is aiding the victory of Democrats, which, by Bill's logic, is aiding the victory of Satan since that yields pro-abortion, pro-gay and all the rest of that cricus. In politics, if we are going to succeed in advancing our shared moral principles, then we have to have tolerance for difference of religious worship -- this shouldn't be difficult since, afterall, it was one of the two forces that founded our nation to begin with. God's first human beings were Adam & Eve. God did not create them as christians or to be christians. He created them to be his friends, and to be, for lack of a better word, deists--people who believe in, and are devouted to God. If the Republican party is going to win again anytime soon, it will not be because televangelist profiteers like Bill Keller succeed in dividing us by trying to kick mormons out of the tent; republicans will win by uniting the faithful behind the bases of the greater good and religious tolerance.
Actually, Brock, it doesn't matter what religion any of us call ourselves. The truth is that in order to truly be a Christian, you have to believe that there is, in fact,only ONE WAY to get to God, and that is throught Jesus Christ -- You see? "Christ" = "Christ"ian? Get it? That's where the word comes from. As far as that belief dictating who we vote into public office, it is part of our responsibilily as Christians to vote into office those people who will not try to lead our brothers and sisters straight to Hell! And just to set the record straight, Keller is not a Mormon-hater! He loves all people, and wants to spread the truth to all people, sinners and Christians alike. He has been called to spread the Truth, and that is what he does. We, as Christians, are called to hate the sin, not the sinner. It saddens a Christian to see another being lead blindly down a road to Hell, and it would be very unloving to not tell that person that their leaders are deceiving them!
God created us to be His friends. Yes, that is true. However, that relationship was broken when Adam sinned(Romans 5:12)Jesus Christ came to restore that once precious relationship. Jesus Chirst did it by dying on the cross, shedding His blood and raising from the dead. Buddah, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Charles Russel, Mary Baker-Eddy nor anyone else did not.
Since there seems to be so much misunderstanding about the truth of the Bible, I’ll try to make this brief but clear – leaning more towards clear. “In the beginning . . .” God created Adam and Eve (not Adam and Steve) and told them to be fruitful and multiply. He also told them not to eat of the tree in the middle of the garden or they would die. But Satan, who had previously been thrown out of Heaven for rebellion, told them that they wouldn’t die, but would instead become like God, knowing good and evil. Most people think “well, they didn’t die.” But yes they did—not immediately—but they did die. Originally, they were not supposed to die at all, but Satan—who the Bible says has “no truth in him”—left out that small detail. So that was when humans allowed death into the world and all the sin and evil that goes with it. God eventually gave the Ten Commandments—not expecting that humans with sin now in their hearts would ever be able to keep them, but for the purpose of revealing to man exactly how far short they fall and that it is impossible to be sin-free on our own. Actually, there were 615 commandments, but we’re being brief here. God instituted a system of blood sacrifices for sin – a real mess. Thru His prophets over a couple thousand years, God revealed that there would be a Messiah born to take away the sin of the world and be their king. He gave enough details—virgin birth, etc.—that they would know Him. Problem was, they thought “king” would not be born in a manger and they had already added a bunch of man-made rules to their “religion” and just had a real problem with accepting Jesus when he did arrive. Now, there is only one God and only one Son of God—Jesus. Buddah, Muhammed, Joseph Smith, Allah – did not create anything nor provide a way of salvation. Some of you are judging God and Jesus by those who “profess” to be Christians. Anyone can say they’re anything, so don’t judge God by misguided humans. And since true Christians are only human, they do make mistakes, too. Yes, Christians are to work on becoming Christlike, which includes the fact that we can’t wink at sin. God is not only a loving God who sent His only son to die for us, but He is a holy and righteous God who will not tolerate sin. Those who are truly Christlike love Jesus and do not insult him by refusing His gift of free life that he paid for with his very life. We also care enough about others that we want them to know the truth – even if that means that you call us hateful names. True Christians are not “religious,” but instead of a relationship with Christ. There is a very good book written by a Yale-educated lawyer, Lee Stroble(sp?) called “The Case for Christ.” The book came about when he set out to prove that his atheistic beliefs were correct, but instead not only found that there is one true God, but that Jesus is the only way to Him.
Shelah - You said it perfectly. That is what this life and Jesus is all about. Thank you and AMEN!!!!
Now that a televangelist's bigotry has spread from his disservice in fuelling intra-party minifeuds to Bible talk, let me examine it as others have already pushed in. Some here are making great sense in trying to find a tangible solution to uniting what people of faith do have in common as it takes shape in public form that affects and impacts public policy and our lives: politics, elected officials. Some others have decided that's not enough and even though many others of other beliefs share their principles, they cannot be trusted and are being told they do not understand the word of God, or the Bible, and in conclusion are helping us by telling us we won't be going to heaven because we don't believe in the lone path to God, which is of course Jesus the Christ. So, let's look on the basis of that particular belief. Every letter of every word of The Bible is professed by 'true christians' to be the word of God. Namely, the four gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These four men are credited as being the authors of the history or biography of the life of Jesus, his preachings, and his death. However, absent in each and every single one of their accounts is anyting to do with the fall of man, the Garden of Eden, or even the name Adam. Why does this matter? Simply, if Matthew, Mark, Luke and John believed Jesus was born only to die for our sins, thus redeeming mankind for the fall we all suffered when Adam & Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, then they would've written so. Instead, Jesus never even spoke of Adam or the fall of man from the garden of eden, by these firsthand accounts. Redemption is not a doctine of the New Testament--the basis of Christianity. This idea came from the Church of Rome, or "The Church" as it was known before the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic Church. This was either a mistake made by the Church in translating what were only allegorical references from the book of Genesis to get a point across, as the first christians did being they were from the East (where allegories and parables and legends were told to teach history and life lessons), or the Church decided there was an advantage (much like they voted on what written works qualified as words of God to make it into the Bible in the first place) to make literal the metaphors of the tree of life, tree of knowledge and garden of eden even though they are not mentioned in the books of the New Testament. In other words, if God intended to redeem mankind from its sins by giving up his Son to die on the cross, then the 4 eyewitness accounts of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus make no mention of it in the first place. What's more, how can the Son of God be said to suffer Death when he rose just a few days later only to ascend to his throne in Heaven, alongside God our father? It's quite the opposite that Jesus's suffering was his life on Earth, apart from God, not his 3-day (cheating of) death. But make no mistake, the entire point the Church set out to prove with the New Testament was the literal belief of the Pharisees that Jesus died and was resurrected in the same body. You may recognize the word 'pharisee' since that is what Paul was raised as. It was Paul, who never was a disciple, who never met Jesus, who expanded Christianity, who added onto it, post-biblically, after having a vision of Jesus, a revelation on the road to Damascus, the notion that Jesus, in his life and death, existed and exists in a cosmic order that spans from the birth of time (Adam) to the end of time (Judgement Day). Jesus never spoke of such things. Yet such things Paul spoke of then today comprise the identity of Christianity more than do the teachings of Jesus. Given just this discussion, it's clear that nothing is clear. But what is actual is that much of the character of Jesus Christ was developed by someone, Paul, who had a post-biblical revelation, which is a thing treated like a beast by evangelical christians trying to damn the whole of the LDS Church for its post-biblical revelation bases. All of this of course means that God would never be so silly as to rely on products of mankind to deliver his word. It is all more likely that Jesus existed just as many philosophers had before and after him urging man to be good and do good. He either lived and died or didn't, but those sensational elements about him are secondary yet have been made primary by a Church at the time seeking power and interested in establishing order. Jesus taught people to be good and do good and to love God and to trust God. Jesus never spoke of redemption and Adam. Jesus wasn't a Christian and didn't found or establish the Christian church. Jesus was a deist. And insofar we all are deists before we are christians or jews or any other sort of believers. It is on this first article of the Christian creed--belief in God--that some of the more radical evangelists need to rest their partisan views on differing chruches and realize that their actions in the public square in a nation erected on religious tolerance are only damaging to the moral atmosphere we all exist in and share, and their own cause. Instead, last year, we saw guys like Bill Keller telling people a vote for Mitt Romney (who is of superior moral composition and adherence than Keller) is a vote for Satan, and Mike Huckabee waging an anti-Mormon whisper campaign and slyly questioning whether mormons believe Satan and Jesus were brothers. Meanwhile, that yielded the Republican nomination to John McCain, who yeilded the Presidency to Barack Obama, the most liberal and secular President we've probably ever had. Way to go.
To Brock who wrote in this morning the 18th at 9:55. Fist of all I uphold Bill Keller. I have studied the Mormon cult. The Old testament speaks much of Jesus Christ and the New Tesament. The New tesament however does not speak any of Joseph Smith the Mason and his invented cult of the Mormons. This Mormon cult is made up just like the rest of them. In the begining God created the heavens and the earth. That is the God of all creation the Father of Jesus Christ. There is no other God except the ones that are made up and even these so called gods did not create the heavens and the earth or you. Most Mormons do not even understand their own religion. They do not realize the head of that church is satan. I love those people that go to that church but I do not like that religion. It is of the devil and God hates the work of the devil . Number two. Your good works alone will send you to hell. It doesn't matter how honest and good you are. You have broken God,s laws (Romans 3:23) and without repenting to God and believing on Jesus Christ you have chosen hell for yourself. You have a choice. Repent and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior or choose hell. It does not matter what you think because you cannot change the truth. And that truth is Jesus Christ who was crucified, died, was buried and rose again. He died for your sins so you would not have to. And the living bible is the only truth. Not the book of Mormon or any other cult. That is not my opinion that is me paraphrasing out of the bible, that is the gospel. Number three: The true Christians have finally had enough of the immoral degrading things this country has allowed and are standing up with the voice of God and anyone not Christian which seems to be the majority of this country cannot stand that. satan is screaming loud. With much prayer it is like pouring hot water on the wicked witch. These are like the days before Noah. God will not contend with this rebellious nation much longer. Know I am praying for you. You do not have to go to hell, you have a choice.
Matthew 7:21 Not everyone that sayeth unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Bill Keller is just warning (by the command of God) Mitt Romney and all Mormons of this.
As one of the wicked witches, you're right, we really don't want to change our constitutional rights to bring them into accord with a divisive hate-monger and an outdated moral code. Most of the really nasty stuff comes from Deuteronomy, which is like what, 3,000 years old? And Satan? WTF? I'd have thought that in 2,000 years we would have developed into a culture that need not rely on a boogeyman to keep us honest. I think it's really interesting that Jesus was primarily concerned with what his people did - he didn't chase money lenders out of Roman temples, just Jewish ones. So apparently, none of the people screaming about other denominations and religions have decided to follow the WWJD? principle on that issue. My favorite verse in the New Testament is Matthew 6:6. "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." Too bad more of them don't follow that sage piece of advice.
The other point fuelling the radical evangelical disdain, distrust, or concern for people of the LDS faith is that mormons and evangelicals have a geographical clash for followers now that LDS has grown out of the mountain west. It's always about the money, about the power -- especially by those who claim it is not. Only, in the present case, I can't say I've really seen mormons refusing to vote for evangelicals. Can't say I've really heard mormons trying to kick evangelicals out of a political party and cutlural movement. Can't really say I've heard mormons mocking the shortcomings of evangelical leaders (especially televangelists) and their far above average instances of fraud and malfeasance, their hypocrisy, their unchristianlike behavior.
Jesus a hate monger? He healed the blind,sick,mamed,deaf,and raised the dead! On top of that He paid the price for mankind's sin. How does that bother anybody? Just what teaching and or act of Jesus Christ(not men following Him) angers someone? He gave His life a ransom for many, yet this gets people mad. He doesn't want us to follow other man made religions. He wants us to follow Him. I am a Christian but that name was given to people by people who hated Him. Jesus made a way for Mitt Romney, but Mitt Romney chose religion over having a relationship with the Jesus Christ of the Bible not the Mormon Jesus who is NOT the Only Begotten Son of God born of a virgin. The Mormon Jesus has the same name but are two completely different people. Enough with the "religion" of Christianity. Look I'm a Christian because that is what the world labels me as. I just a sinner saved by the wonderful Grace of Jesus Christ. Am I perfect? Hardly, neither is anybody else. I just don't understand why you folks HATE GOD. Go ahead hate me and my Christianity if you want to. But seek Jesus Christ of the Bible and you will find that He's the way the truth and the life. What's so bad about that? Besides there is enough of room in Heaven that you probably won't have to live next to me. Let the anger go and give this Jesus that you hate a chance.
This is mostly for tp: As for politics, if there are no candidates who share my Christian beliefs, I will vote for whomever shares my moral beliefs. And we ARE trying to help you. Every letter of every word of the Bible IS TRUTH – the truths in the New Testament are concealed in the Old Testament; just as the truths in the Old Testament are revealed in the New. At the time Jesus walked the earth, the Jews knew that a Messiah was coming and they expected him. It was a given that his purpose was to redeem mankind for the sins that dated back to Adam & Eve, therefore, there was no reason to state the obvious. I only explained it myself because so many don’t get it. Redemption is the entire purpose of the New Testament. At the time Jesus walked the earth, the Jews were in bondage to the Romans. Yes, the Bible was written by men – but is the inspired Word of God. The Bible IS literal in itself, except where it is made clear that parables are being told. You asked how can the Son of God be said to “have suffered death when he rose a few days later?” The death he suffered – was a horrible death. We have an all-powerful supernatural God who created the entire earth and everything in/on it in six days – raising His son from death into a glorified body would not be a big deal for him. And this was also prophesied in the Old Testament as a proof and a sign that He was who He said He was. He didn’t “cheat” death any more than if I cut my arm and it’s healed in 3 days – would that mean that I really didn’t have a cut arm? Oh – and the Pharisees were the ones who DID NOT believe Jesus – not the ones who did believe. Yes, Paul was formerly Saul, the Pharisee, who was converted by a supernatural experience with the true Living Christ. Just as I, a sinner, was converted by the true Living Christ. And the New Testament is not “extra-Biblical,” it is one part of a whole. Paul did not develop Jesus’ character. Jesus exhibited his character while he was here. He also said “if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” Therefore, what isn’t spelled out specifically about his character in the New Testament is very plain the Old. Jesus spoke of redemption quite often, telling his listeners that if they believe in him, they will be saved. I’m sorry that you said nothing is clear to you, but if you earnestly pray and seek the truth, you will find it. One thing I agree with you on – disagreements and arguments are what cost the election.
I feel Bill Keller is doing his best to show people what the Bible says about important topics of the day. He warns people about hell and tells them about heaven in the hope that some will respond to the truth.
Bill asked his viewers to come here and join in on the discussions. Allow me to translate "this site is liberal, please go to this site and defend me! oh and of course give me money"
The only thing Bill Keller can ever be accused of is telling the truth!!! He is speaking from the BIBLE the final authority in all matters. A lot of people can't deal with that because you have they have to live their life a certain ways, and they don't want to surrender to GOD and live GOD'S way.
A lot of people don't understand Bill Keller and his way of teaching. He tells things point blank since it is the easiest way for him to get his message across. He cares very much about you. Jesus spoke in parables, but if you don't have the Holy Spirit in you, they won't make much sense. If you do know Jesus, those parables are 100%accurate and precise on what He was teaching about the world. The world will hate us because it first hated Him. Please don't refer to Mr. Keller and other born again believers as intolerant, hatemongers, homophobes, bigots, hypocrites, etc. Please feel free to call us what we are...sinners. A lot of us were doing the same thing as anyone else on here was doing...every kind of sin imaginable. Some of us had to be brought down real hard for us to get right with Jesus. We are just trying to prevent you from having to go through the same thing, but that is your choice. When the Lord gets a hold of you and reaches deep into your heart, you will experience a love and peace like you've always wanted. We are just trying to share the love of Jesus Christ with a world that so desperately needs it. God bless.
Dale, no one said Jesus was a hate-monger. I was referring to Keller's attempts to discredit other Christian denominations. You are correct: the Jesus myth system is an admirable one, the problem is that so few visible church leaders follow his example. They beguile people out of their money in order to build edifices of excess and self-aggrandizement, they trump themselves up as having a direct line with "God", and spend their time spewing hateful rhetoric instead of peace and love. Jesus didn't need to frost his hair, wear fancy suits, or build a big church. He taught that a church was wherever two or more followers were gathered. That we should love our neighbors, and turn the other cheek when we are offended or wronged. There's not a lot to hate in that. It was good advice when he said it, as well as all the other people who said it before him (like Buddha and Marcus Aurelius). I don't hate your concept of God - no need to. There's no point in hating something you don't believe exists. Nonetheless, the Bible has valuable lessons. The world needs more Jesus-like patience and tolerance, but that's not what Bill Keller is selling.
I can see this argument. You're going to hell, no you are going to hell, no i'm not you are, I am not, you are. Good grief. I think what Bill Keller is really saying is, please please please talk about me. I don't care what you say just talk about me please. Oh yea and Bill, before you pass judgement on someone, lets see the prints of the nails in your hands and feet! I think the Mormons will beat you to heaven.
Matthew 7:21 Not everyone that sayeth unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. As a Mormon, I'm warning Bill Keller and all those who think they are saved - beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.
Really? Are you joking? Do you think that the Jesus of the bible was a wolf?? Maybe you should be looking for the zipper on your Joseph Smith's lambskin!
I am amazed, but not surprised, at the people who call Bill Keller a hate monger. they obviously have no idea what the difference between hate and love is. Hate is when you tell aMormon that it is alraight that you believe you be a God on your own planet when you die and have followed Mormon theolegy in your life. So that person continues on his or her path to hell because you encouraged them instead of telling them the truth. The same thing goes for people who who tell homosaexuals that it is alright to live the lifestyle they are living, as long as they are good and don't hurt others. Well the truth is that homosexuals are not going to heaven unless they repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The bible plainly say in 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexuaslly immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.So all you people who say it is alright to be aq Morman(idolater) or homosexual are aiding these people to continue on their road to Hell. And then you call that love. Love is what Bill keller and other Christians who have the guts to stand up and be counted do, and that is to tell these people the btruth of what their life choices are doing to them. And Love is telling them how they can be forgiven by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ, and also share in a glorious eternity in heaven. For TP who said that Jesus never spoke about existing from the beginning of time to the end of time, you must never have read the bible. Jesus very plainly saidf before Abraham came to be "I AM". He also said that I am the Alpha and the Omega. It is amazing how many people will try to twist the truth, rather than accept the truth that they to are on their way to hell unless they repent and ask Jesus into theirs hearts, and let His love change their lives and lifestyles. But of course that would mean being willing to give up the temporal and egotistic things that drive them , and submit their lives to the one and only God. May the Holy Spirit touch each and every doubter, and bring you into an intimate loving relationship with JESUS CHRIST, so that you may spend eternity in heaven.
John 3:16 - "For God [the Father] so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [anyone, all inclusive] believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." I believe this to be true. Actually, I'm betting my life that it is. If I live my life as though this is truth, and die to find out I'm wrong, well, no harm done - I've enjoyed my life with that belief and then will just die and either go to heaven or nothingness. BUT if you don't believe this scripture, you are betting your very life that I'm wrong. BUT WHAT IF I'M RIGHT?
I support Reverend Bill Keller. Mormons follow the false prophet Joseph Smith whose teachings clearly conflict with God's perfect Word. Preachers should be allowed to preach against such evil doctrines to inform people and to allow people to make an intelligent decision for Christ Jesus. The government should not be allowed to bully Reverend Bill Keller, or any evangelist of Christ Jesus.
I am so tired of hearing the little boy who called "Cult". What uneducated ignorance! Look in the frikkin' dictionary and you will find that any "organized religion" is technically a "CULT" (EGADS!!! Run for the hills!). Might as well start calling all Christians "cult members" now and get all this mess cleared up. The Catholics fall under the definition of a cult. The Baptists fall under the definition of a cult. Sheesh! Even those cute, humble Amish can be mashed in there with the rest of us cult member Christians. Pretty funny, huh? I'm LMAO, anyways. LOOK IT UP BEFORE YOU SAY IT AND LOOK REALLY STUPID for Pete's sake!
P.S. Seems from this article that Bill's views are very similar to those of the L.D.S., with the exception of the hate monger attitude. He could learn a lot from the L.D.S and from the Bible about loving your fellow humans and following Christ's example of doing so. (Also got at huge kick out of the grouping homosexuals and Mormons in the same category. That HAS to be a first! LOL)
Aww, jeez, Bob, I would have thought the hate mongering part was pretty obvious. That would be the whole thing about homosexuality as an abomination (I won't even get into the sensational rhetoric of abortion as "murder"). I love how your position comes down to the inescapable truth of the end justifying the means: it's okay to vilify someone and pour hateful rhetoric upon them if you're doing it to save their soul! Seems to me, that if you really cared about our souls, you might want to think about talking to us, and about us, as human beings, as opposed to abhorrent freaks. I'm sorry, Bob, I don't know how I mistook this pious concern for my soul as homophobia wrapped in religious hypocrisy. It's real easy to jump around on a stage, inciting your congregation to indulge in homophobia, it's a lot harder to sit on that stage and convince people to go out into their community and engage in good works, charitable acts, tolerance, and love. I'd take people's claims about their need to save us more seriously if they spent half as much of that time trying to rehabilitate murderers, rapists, and other violent criminals, or trying to ease the suffering of lepers, or children with AIDS. And that's probably my biggest gripe, of the people I see preaching against being gay, I never really see the ways in which they try to ease the suffering in this world. Since I'm not a Christian, and I don't believe in eternal salvation, I'm not all that impressed by people who think they're doing God's work by preaching hate and disenfranchisment in this world, just so that they can save souls in the next, and not a whole lot else. So how about it Bob, are you just an armchair soldier in the army of the Lord, or do you actually do anything to make people's lives better right now?
This is for Kitty. Since you don't see Christians helping others, I guess you never heard of Compassion International and how that organization feeds and cares for the hungry children around the world. Or how about all the churches in this country that have soup kitchens, food banks and clothing drives to help feed and clothe the poor and homeless. We don't boast about what we do because we are servants of Jesus Christ. We don't look for the spotlight like Hollywood does. We just serve like Jesus taught us to do. It can be quite humbling and very rewarding all at the same time. And most of us volunteer doing it. Give it a try and you'll see what being a Christian is all about.
Bill Keller is correct in his assertions about Mormonism being a cult. So to are the Jehovah Witnesses. Romney and Glenn Beck are not Christians.
To those of you who have a problem with brother Keller, grow up, wake up & smell the spiritual coffee! To tell someone, wether they be gay,straight,mormon or whatever, that they will die & go to hell unless they repent is not hate speech! Its love speech! Keeping silent about such matters is hateful. Those of you who have a problem with this man of God obviously do not know the bible. Theres a reason why we Christians are the most hated people in the world....its because we actually have the truth.
In Billy Grahams book "The Journey" he repeats several times that sometimes Christians don't act the way they are supposed to. This is very unfortunate, but true. If you are looking at Christians and finding a bad example, the one you should really be looking for answers from is Jesus himself. Jesus was loving and kind and compassionate. He fed the hungry and healed the sick. HOWEVER, He also went around preaching to everybody about the Truth, and told them they were going to hell if they did certain things or acted certain ways. Does that mean that Jesus hated them? No, it means he loved them and wanted them to have the gift of Eternal Life in Heaven. We ALL fall short -- even us Christians! But we have been forgiven and offered Grace through Christ, and only through Christ! And if you still think that Christians hate anybody, just remember that Christ loved everyone so much that he suffered a horrible beating and gruesome death for everyone. And, just to prove how much he loved everyone, He asked God the Father to forgive his murderers just before He died! It doesn't get any more loving than that!
The fact of the matter is that no one truly knows--has intimate knowledge of--what happens to any of us after we die. That's where faith in God comes into every serious and honest mind's consciousness--our understanding of our place in nature. It is upon this universal progression of thought of life, order, and afterlife that we establish religion to orchestrate the attempt of man to reach God. And along the way also establishing order and law, values and principle--a better and more civil society. Herein lies the true value of any religion and any church, the job it does building character and fostering goodwill, not in any of its doctrines. Not in any fantastic and shocking messenger-poser character like Bill Keller or James Baker who claim to be on special missions from God. God makes sense. So, when any human being of limited capacity (which is all of us), plus is of questionable intelligence, and has a very dishonest past employs the age-old tools of a bigoted firebrand to inform us that people will be weeded out of Heaven by categories, well that doesn't make sense and you can count on that not being the way God handles who gets to go to Heaven and who doesn't. If God were how Keller claims he is, then God would never look beyond the religious affiliation box on anyone's application form--only a fool and a bigot would discriminate thusly, and if you think that's how God operates, then you are of the most disrespectful lot of human beings there ever could be to consider and believe God would act in such a petulant and pompous manner. Now, I know Keller is on his website instructing his robots to come here and defend him because most of the commenters here are either not religious or got to very liberal churches, as he puts it. So, for the rest of us, knowing Keller is sitting at his screen reading every word people have to say about this subject and his name, knowing he has called for his supporters to get his back, you can take pleasure in conclusion that the lack of quality of debate on the other side of this issue is evidence of the poor pedigree and low caliber that Keller produces in his facade of a church. Not only are the words he has spoken in this interview unchristian, they're unAmerican as well. As long as self-serving characters like him continue to prey on unsuspecting souls in search of God, and as long as he continues to fool them into thinking in a God-is-on-our-evangelical-side-alone corrupt mentality, well, those of us who are not susceptible to falling victim to such ploys should feel a duty to stand up in the face of such blasphemous and inhumane fraudulence.
It is very simple. If you have a warm feeling of confirmation when you read Keller's work, then it is true. If you feel tense or confused, it is not. God is not the author of confusion.
To Kitty: The witch you seem to be proud to call yourself yesterday at 3:35 Pm the 18th. This referring to satan and I am sure you are not him. Also I see you do not understand the bible when you thought someone says they are praying for someone that they were being a Pharisee. Big difference. Unless it pleases you I will not go into theology at this time. I would like also to say I am not a follower of Bill Keller I am a follower of Jesus Christ and you can call me what you like. I do see you don't sleep much and are in pain mentally, spiritually and maybe even physically. We are all broken people. The only difference between you and me is the fact I am a sinner saved by grace. I have given my life over to Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I also want you to know that I love homosexuals, thieves, murders, and the such. But I do not love these sinful acts. According to God's Holy Word sin is sin no matter how you dress it or label it.. I would like to explain why homosexuals feel that Christians are picking on them and by the way they for the most part are not homophobic. We all have our sins but Christians repent of them, hourly if necessary. Gays just show their sin on the outside. But the reason gays seem to be singled out is they make parades of their sins. Murders and thieves do not parade down the street saying we want equal rights for our sins. Murders would like the right to kill 5 people a year with no punishment and of course rights for thieve and liars. I also love you no matter what you say or think but most of all God loves you. But if you so choose to rebel against His Holy Word the bible which has His laws in them you have chosen hell for yourself. Since God created everything including you He also created laws that we must live by which is where we get our morals. It does not really matter what you or I think it does not change the truth. So if you would like to talk about God's love instead of fighting I am willing to talk to you about your salvation. Or anyone else for that matter.
Just wanted to clear up one more thing. Bill Keller did not send people to this forum to defend him. In case you haven't noticed, he really doesn't care what you think of him - only that everyone know the truth of God's word. To quote Bill, he asked people to join this forum to be "bold enough to share God's Truth and the love of Christ in this forum."
1 Corinthians 1:18: "For the message of the cross [of Jesus] is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
2 Corinthians 4 1 Therefore, since God in his mercy has given us this new way,[a] we never give up. 2 We reject all shameful deeds and underhanded methods. We don’t try to trick anyone or distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know this. 3 If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. 4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. 5 You see, we don’t go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let there be light in the darkness,” has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 We now have this light shining in our hearts, but we ourselves are like fragile clay jars containing this great treasure.[b] This makes it clear that our great power is from God, not from ourselves. 8 We are pressed on every side by troubles, but we are not crushed. We are perplexed, but not driven to despair. 9 We are hunted down, but never abandoned by God. We get knocked down, but we are not destroyed. 10 Through suffering, our bodies continue to share in the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be seen in our bodies. 11 Yes, we live under constant danger of death because we serve Jesus, so that the life of Jesus will be evident in our dying bodies. 12 So we live in the face of death, but this has resulted in eternal life for you. 13 But we continue to preach because we have the same kind of faith the psalmist had when he said, “I believed in God, so I spoke.”[c] 14 We know that God, who raised the Lord Jesus,[d] will also raise us with Jesus and present us to himself together with you. 15 All of this is for your benefit. And as God’s grace reaches more and more people, there will be great thanksgiving, and God will receive more and more glory.
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